Curse

jesh · Nov 28, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Go play an Ele and see if you can keep your energy up even with 16 in Storage.
.........

Obviously never monked.

...........

Any competant elementalist should be able to keep at full, or close to full energy, unless you just went up against a hard boss and they were forced to spam Gale. If you can't keep your energy up, guess what? You need to take some ENERGY MANGEMENT!
They will never realize just how worthless they are if you bring BR.
Elementalist and monk players both seem to have this problem, where they just can't get it into their heads that energy management will strengthen their build.

As for the monking comment, I can tell you that I've been playing my monk for 17 months, and the majority of the time in PvE I am *not* under stress. When I am, it's due to a lack of competancy in my team, to the extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

BR gives 3 energy pip of regen, thats 6 energy per second. Even at lvl 0 Blood Magic it gives 8 seconds, which is enough to replenish the monk's energy decently. So... I thought you played a lot?

3 pips of *energy regen* is equal to .33333~*3= 1 energy per second. At 8 seconds, 8*1= 8, over time the course of 8 seconds. It's very close to worthless.

Ensign must shudder at all the terrible math in these forums lately.

Phoenix Sebolta · Nov 29, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Jesh, pretty much said everything i was going to say. Thanks!

At least theres someone out there with sense who thinks along the same lines as me.

Also, the focus was never on me dying, I manage to keep myself out of trouble as much as i can. It was on the monk and ele not managing their energy properly. As this guy ^ says, not being able to manage your energy is an attribute of noobishness. I might be an SS necro, but whats the point of me just doing that?!?! I have POTENTIAL, which far outstrips the benefit from Blood Ritual. SS necros are there to deal damage. My build is focused on damage dealing, i do it well.

One last point! "do your job and support your monks?!?!" It isnt my job to support noobish monks! Its my job to damage deal!

AuraofMana · Nov 29, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Any competant elementalist should be able to keep at full, or close to full energy

Tell that to the chain echo nuker on Meteor Shower.

Quote:

It's very close to worthless.

Quote:

Its my job to damage deal!

So why does SS bring BR when 2man UW was still popular?

Quote:

My build is focused on damage dealing, i do it well.

O snap, my Warrior is concentrated on damage dealing too! But that doesn't stop me from bringing Watch Yourself! for the party.

Quote:

Elementalist and monk players both seem to have this problem, where they just can't get it into their heads that energy management will strengthen their build.

I agree they all need energy management, but the thing is:
1. No one lasts forever, and heck, long fights happen.
2. Your allies can get spiked and most monks only bring Healing Spells (which is retarded because PS is one of the best spell ever)
3. SS doesn't need that many skills to be efficient, so why not BRING BR?

Again, I will repeat: If you are so confident in your team, why the hell do you bring Rez? Your job is to deal damage right? Your team should take care of itself right? Why Rez then?

Phoenix Sebolta · Nov 29, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Dont get me started on 2 man Underworld. I was a 100% reliable 55hp monk. And every time a necro cast BR on me, i would shudder in disgust! I decent 55monk doesnt need BR!

Also, have you ever compared the damage output of a warrior, and the damage output of an SS necromancer? You dont bring "watch yourself" for the party, its an armor buff for yourself as much as anyone else. If it only buffed you for the same ammount of adrenaline, youd still use it.

I acknowledge that in a barrage party, the order necro should BR the monk. Its necessary when the others are getting hit, theres no bonder and theyre taking a lot of damage. The monk does get put under pressure. In a 5 man FoW team though, give me a break. If the tank holds aggro properly, the casters let him get aggro before running in, and he his built to take a lot of abuse, then the monk shouldnt get into trouble and shouldnt need Blood Ritual...which lest we forget, gives a mere 1 energy per second. hardly a life saver whereas res sig is!!

Also to answer the point about why bring res sig if im confident in my party? What use is blood ritual, if someones dead? And being dead is worse than having no energy. When im healing, and i run out of energy, i run away and prepare to ressurect the party to full when the enemies retreat. When im a SS and the healer dies, i res sig him in combat, and the fight continues.

Cathode_Reborn · Nov 30, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Um, could we stop acting like every Pve monk is experienced and has trained to be a pro monk for so long? Btw, don't compare 55'ing to the average Pug in a mission, it's a completely different situation. One involves a random monk that you invited into the party cause you're expecting him to heal. The other involves a farming session where the monk is a tank.

[QUOTE=Phoenix Sebolta]If the tank holds aggro properly, the casters let him get aggro before running in, and he his built to take a lot of abuse, then the monk shouldnt get into trouble and shouldnt need Blood RitualQUOTE]

lol, I think we'd all love it so much if that actually happened in pve. You're dreaming, were talkin pve, things could and will go wrong, and sometimes horribly wrong, which isn't uncommon at all.

You sound like you're teaming with guildies, and if you are, then sure leave BR out of your skillbar since you know you might not need it. Again, teaming with a monk you've never met, is very different. I hope we all know that each profession has tons of people who have no clue at all on what builds or skills to use. When it's a monk that happens to be that "newb" (not to be confused with "noob", as you said), then things could go wrong. Any inexperienced monk will want, and might even "need" BR.

jesh · Nov 30, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Tell that to the chain echo nuker on Meteor Shower.

The only thing I'll be telling them is "Bye loser", shortly before I kick them from the group once I ask them to ping their skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

You sound like you're teaming with guildies, and if you are, then sure leave BR out of your skillbar since you know you might not need it. Again, teaming with a monk you've never met, is very different. I hope we all know that each profession has tons of people who have no clue at all on what builds or skills to use. When it's a monk that happens to be that "newb" (not to be confused with "noob", as you said), then things could go wrong. Any inexperienced monk will want, and might even "need" BR.

I agree with you, Cathode.. like Ensign said recently, Guild Wars is full of those people who missed the short bus in the morning. I need to start making a scrap book of his quotes.
As for taking BR on an SS necro? Well that would involve branching into Blood Magic, but I could see taking it at low levels to benefit the potentially horrible monk. Sometimes I feel the need to compensate for other's inadiquacies, and other times I'm just in the mood to laugh as everyone wipes. I never said I WOULDN'T take it, I just said that it's stupid not to have energy management.
Which it is.

Phoenix Sebolta · Nov 30, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Fair point, there are plenty of crappy monks out there. Most of the problem ive noted though, is not that theyre badly built, but theyre just slow with the heals.

i guess its fair to say it isnt an SS's job to energy manage for the team, but if it means keeping noobish monks going, maybe its necessary.

Absolutely drop it with a decent team, but in a PuG, not much can be expected...

Cebe · Nov 30, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

Well said. I have played ele since I started and Ele is my first, and favourite character. It astonishes me how many elementalists spam their energy during missions when it gets low. What? You're primary is ENERGY STORAGE...you should NEVER need Br with one exception. As I see it, the only time an ele should need br is if they are ressed mid-battle and need to regain energy fast. If you're with a good enough team noone should die anyway.

But this happened to me today when I was playing as ele. Some other ele spammed "My energy is 9 of 102!" to which I replied "My energy is 75 of 89!". It is in no way hard to look after you're energy as an ele so yes, Eles should never need BR when they have so many energy storage skills, attunements and glyphs. Funnily enough that same ele then told me I should use Water Trident to interrupt. Riiiight.

When I play necro I usually take BR on missions and then I only give it to Monks. Generally most monks seem grateful and thank you for it, which is nice. The thing is, if you want a healer with energy management, you don't go for a Monk...you go for a Ritualist. Most monk straight-up heals, even with Divine Favor, barely out-do Ritualist heals. Ritualists have the added bonus of having good energy management skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Go play an Ele and see if you can keep your energy up even with 16 in Storage.

I have 13 in energy storage. When I go water I have maybe 10 in energy storage. I play all attributes, except fire, regularly and energy has never been a problem. Like I say, unless the ele has just been ressed there should be no need at all for them to need br.

aubee · Nov 30, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

It may sound harsh, but I don't think an SS necro should be expected to bring BR. And anybody expecting or needing it may be someone you don't really want to be in a group with. If there is some special circumstance like an area of fairly heavy energy drain or denial then it might be okay to bring to use in a pinch. And it's certainly okay if you have a free slot and just *want* to bring it to make it a little easier on monks. But nobody, including monks, should *need* it. Everyone should be able to manage their own energy requirements. If one can't, then either the build is defective or the player doesn't know what he is doing.

Personally I'd rather take a hero or hench healer than a player healer who "needs" BR. I play mainly a WoH monk when I'm monking and occasionally a boon prot (so I can't speak for other monk builds) and I have *very* rarely run into energy problems. And those rare occasions were all due to either a defective team build or inexperienced play.

As for ele nukers asking for BR, just don't get in a party with one if you are SSing. SS nuking and echo meteor shower nuking (for example) don't coordinate well together anyway in my experience as the knockdowns slow down the damage from SS. Same for a smiting monk using SoJ (not that you run into that very often). Given the choice, take a different player over an ele nuker if you are SSing.

And even if you do take an ele, again they should be able to manage their own energy. Even a searing flames/glowing gaze spamming build can pour out lots of damage while managing energy very nicely, so it can be done. Even arcane echoing meteor shower, I have only rarely run into energy problems with my ele. I agree with a previous poster who said an ele asking for BR should be kicked. Even our heroes can manage their own energy, so shouldn't we expect real live players to do so as well? How would someone playing an ele feel if you asked them to change their secondary to necro and bring BR for you? They'd probably make some of the same arguments against it that have been made here.

Phoenix Sebolta · Nov 30, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Regarding the point you made about eles and SS co oirdinating badly, thats not quite the case. For a 5 man FoW party to work, the 2 damage dealers have to co ordinate. Its no good casting SS on a group of warriors, then the ele coming and nuking them.

Nukes work best on the casters!! Meteor shower is affected by armor level, SS isnt.

Hella Good · Nov 30, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

@OP:

Hmm, then why should Paragons bother with support skills? Why should Rits bother with support skills? Why should Monks bother healing? You see where this is going? GW is a team effort. If you only wanna echo your SS and eat popcorn while everyone else is struggling, then I feel you pain. *rolls eyes*

My main character is a Necro and I've run it all. And if some1 on the team has a valid concern that I can help with, I have always made room. What's there about SS? Do you actually need anything more than Arcane Echo and SS? You suddenly run outta like 6 slots on your build? How did that happen?

Now think what a Mo has to get. Cond removal, hex removal, fast heal, major heal, back-up heal, etc...

As for SS being the most powerful hex in the game, it never was. It's big overhype. How does SS beat MoP when the target gets hit by a volly of 10 Fiends beats me... SS never came any close to that kinda DPS, it's DIMENSIONS above and beyound it. Heck, even with scatter MoP beats SS. It just requires brains. And we don't like brains. We like spamming echo SS and eating popcorn.

aubee · Nov 30, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

Regarding the point you made about eles and SS co oirdinating badly, thats not quite the case. For a 5 man FoW party to work, the 2 damage dealers have to co ordinate. Its no good casting SS on a group of warriors, then the ele coming and nuking them.

Nukes work best on the casters!! Meteor shower is affected by armor level, SS isnt.

True, but (assuming I understand your point) instead of an ele nuker you can take a dedicated interrupter to shut down enemy eles and just let the necro nuke them with SS as well. SS works fine on casters too. But admittedly my experience SSing alongside an ele has been mostly in the UW as opposed to FOW. It definitely slowed down the killing there. Probably because of (as you mention) the the high armor level of the aatxes. And this was before the AI updates for NF as well...

Carinae · Nov 30, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

If a monk I know asks me to bring BR, then I will, say for an Alliance PUG. But in that situation the monk is typically a much higher caliber monk than your average PUG monk, and BR will be used as an emergency reserve only. And the monk will be calling his energy BEFORE he runs out!!!!!!

If I join a normal PUG and they ask for BR, I get a badddd feeling.

The entire problem with a BR necro is that PUGS depend on them entirely. BR becomes a crutch that simply proliferates poor game play and cultivates the attitude that BR necs are there for you rather than being there because they bring other skills.

I will leave the group if an Ele asks for BR. If the Ele runs dry, he can watch as the Necro and Warrior take that boss down without him. That's usually enough of an ego blow to get an Ele to respec with E-management.

Here is another problem with how people play with battery necros: CALL YOUR ENERGY LONG BEFORE YOU RUN OUT!!!!

If you get to less than 10 energy before you call, and you have no E-management, then you are a terrible player. Period. Honestly, if a Monk or Ele get themselves in this situation, do you really think BR (or even BiP) is really gonna help? Maybe in the short term, but sooner or later, they'll bite off more that they can chew....and then blame everyone else.

BR is used 99% of the time to cover up poor gameplay style, to make bad Ele's and Monks look better. That's why necro's don't like running it, plain and simple. It makes ME responsible for YOUR actions, and there are alternatives.

For example:
YOU could run Blood and take Offering.

YOU could run Inspiration and take MoR (or a dozen other Insp skills)

You could bond the tank.

You could choose better skills. Ele's are NOT required to take the 8 skills with the biggest numbers on them. Try understanding the gameplay dynamics, I know, that's crazy talk.

Monks are NOT required to spend all their energy on a lost cause. Be aware of the battlefield. Sometimes people just need to be allowed to die because the cost of keeping them alive endangers everyone else.

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 01, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

BR is used 99% of the time to cover up poor gameplay style, to make bad Ele's and Monks look better. That's why necro's don't like running it, plain and simple. It makes ME responsible for YOUR actions, and there are alternatives.

That is the crux of my whole argument!! Thank you!

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 01, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

@OP:
What's there about SS? Do you actually need anything more than Arcane Echo and SS? You suddenly run outta like 6 slots on your build? How did that happen?...........

We like spamming echo SS and eating popcorn.

If you only use arcane echo and Spiteful Spirit, and moreover you think I do the same, not only are you a noob, youve not read the whole of this thread. Of course you need more than echo/SS thats been discussed in this thread.

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

Pick Me · Dec 01, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

If you only use arcane echo and Spiteful Spirit, and moreover you think I do the same, not only are you a noob, youve not read the whole of this thread. Of course you need more than echo/SS thats been discussed in this thread.

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

Did you read Hella Goods' post????

If not, let me re-quote him:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

As for SS being the most powerful hex in the game, it never was. It's big overhype. How does SS beat MoP when the target gets hit by a volly of 10 Fiends beats me... SS never came any close to that kinda DPS, it's DIMENSIONS above and beyound it. Heck, even with scatter MoP beats SS. It just requires brains.

I love SS and have never really used MoP, but from what I've seen and heard, Hella Good makes a valid point. Especially with the new AI mentality.

Emik · Dec 01, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

IMO Archane Echo is a bit of a half assed skill.
Ok good result but too high a cost to make it do it's job 'good'
One SS is most of the time enuff to finish it off.
I've recently change from SS to a permanent SV build becoz it's
1. faster in recharge
2. lower casting cost
3. triggers with anything that they doas long as the enemy's health is higher than yours
4. lowers the enemy's health very fast to then be finished off just by pounding away.

Mobs die instantly and it's funny to watch.
Was doing a quest in The Mirror of Lyss and whiped out a group of 40+ Margonites in less than 2 minutes.

Since the AI is a bit shabby lately i've never taken SS anymore.
Ok i put it on my MoW when i bring him but i let him be N/Me with interupts, so no AE in the build.

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 01, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

To be fair though. One SS is 37 damage to all enemies in the group. Echo it, and its 74 damage to all enemies in the group. cast again and its 111 damage....
You see where im going. It does double the damage of the hex, and can quadrouple it if the enemies dont scatter. because of this, it halves the time taken to kill the group. This is essential in 2 man UW to reduce farming time and helps greatly to reduce the burden on the party in a 5 man FoW group.

To answer that earlier point. Im talking broadly in context of 5 man FoW parties, as that is what ive been doing a lot of recently. In that instance, the only physical damage output is the tanks, and he can only attack one enemy at a time. Im sure if a target was called in another situation and a bunch of rangers attacked it, yes the damage output of Mark of Pain would be considerable. SS in my opinion is a more versatile, less reliant hex.

jesh · Dec 02, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

I have played SS, and I can tell you that just my warrior running MoP can probably kill as fast if not faster. If other people decide to hit the target I call, that's just extra damage. I have had literally the top half of my screen entirely covered in 30s, and that is a frequent, normal experience, not something that happens when you hex just the right guys.
You guys are forgetting key things, probably because all you do is run SS.

1. Weapon classes have a thing called IAS skills.
2. Weapon classes have skills that hit twice.
3. Some of these can be spammed.

P.S. MoP works great with mindless barragers, they don't even have to think about hitting the target I call.

P.P.S Henchies and heroes will attack your called target 90% of the time.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 02, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

The thing is, necros are utility characters that fill very specific roles in a team; Unless they're a minion master, in which case they're very effective for pugs. The thing Necros are best at is allowing really crappy teams to actually beat the game. Your warriors are retards and bring 6 stances and cyclone axe? SS. Your monks are chimps that spam heal party until they're out of energy? Blood rit, any skill that causes aoe weakness. For some random mission, if a team is good you'll wind up playing MM or just getting passed over for something more effective, because SS<Decent Warrior. This is not to say that Necros are not a fleshed out class, but the overall usefulness of them is limited in pve beyond a few standard templates, only one of which will contribute to a good team.

Another thing I need to address: anyone that plays echo+meteor shower, or plays ele and pings for blood rit, or runs 16 energy storage, needs to uninstall.